although it’s interesting research, I think it’s a weak text if you’re even tangentially aware of Telegram’s bullshit narrative as it focuses on the wrong thing. the main point should be “this dude was caught lying on a number of occasions and throws out smoke-screens and FUD when confronted about super-simple stuff. therefore nothing that comes outta his mouth is to be trusted” which should’ve prompted a mass exodus from this bullshit platform a long time ago.
the way more important issue is the collective action problem of dumping this crapware - leave it for what?
I run XMPP and Matrix servers and use various clients, along with Signal. all of those things are fucking dogshit software, there isn’t one that can come close to Telegram’s UX. if you fell into a coma in 2014 and woke up now to Element of Fluffy or whatever, you’d think someone’s pulling your leg. this is what a decade of development looks like?!
Matrix is dogshit and the backend is no longer fully open source, from what I gather. XMPP stuff is basic, yeah, but Cheogram’s WebXDC apps and Movim as a whole have some really interesting upsides. Not sure why anyone wanted to move away from it.
The Matrix foundation didn’t embrace and extend anything, as they were always in control of the spec.
EEE applies to when corporations (notably Microsoft) embraces projects that aren’t theirs and takes them under their wing, expands on functionality which attracts all the users and makes them the sole developer of that functionality, which kills the old, open forks. Microsoft then kills their version of it, and the whole thing dies.
Hm fair enough, would you say it applies to the situation between Google and Firefox? Because at this point it’s clear donors are a bigger factor than any software community. I made the comparison since the improvements of Rust and the potential it has for Linux and technologies intended to replace XMPP seem to have been politicized, giving NGOs control of projects in a way that could be misused further down the line. They’ll have a legitimate justification for it since they keep the projects alive.
Firefox is in the same situation. Bloated umbrella org (Mozilla) that has dubious funding sources builds subpar products. Look at how much support implementing JPEG XL had, and how they just didn’t care and completely shut the conversation down when Google said no.
Synapse is the backend for Matrix and last I heard, people had been waiting a long time for an update, then it was announced the fixes were going to be on a premium version.
The larger issue is that Matrix (and Matterhorn and some others) development has been funded by NED technology initiatives, and is supported by big clients such as NATO and Reddit (or at least Reddit is using Matrix as a backend for their chats now). So they expect the public to keep their client system healthy while customizing software for the military intelligence arm of the imperialist countries. Meaning our interface will suck. Being reliant on these kinds of things is a long-term weakness.
Yeah it’s got something to do with that & development being split between Dendrite and Synapse. I don’t even really care to know since having to dig up the flaws with it then getting argued with by proponents who don’t like to talk about them makes me annoyed. Many Rust developers have a whole cyberpunk ideology that results in their justifications being peppered with political stuff that sounds straight out of Arab Spring-stan anarchist twitter circa 2016. It’s 2025 and those guys have successfully turned Syria into ISIS land. Yet they won’t stop crying - but, I digress! I do not trust any nonprofit dependent on the world’s largest concentrations of finance capital.
Yeah, it really sucks that the closest feature parity and ui/ux parity in messengers is proprietary services.
Even signal isn’t there. Mind you, they can’t offer all the same options by virtue of prioritizing encryption as the default, not afaik, with things like the easier syncing of messages.
I like matrix and it’s various apps fine overall, but they are definitely behind in polish and usability features. They just aren’t great as a primary messaging option. That’s ignoring the difficulty of onboarding people, which is tangential to this, but still relevant since it doesn’t matter how great a messenger is if you can’t use it with anyone. Since the lack of features and ui/ux issues prevent onboarding, it’s a real problem.
IMO getting Matrix’s UI to work like apps people are familiar with is an order of magnitude less effort than any other option, and possibly an order of magnitude better than other options in terms of meeting the design goal of private messaging.
I’ve heard that from some code minded folks before though, so I don’t think you’re wrong. ElementX is better than regular element in that regard already. Been a while since I tried anything else since I only have one person that I communicate regularly with on there. Everyone else is more sporadic, so I haven’t had as much impetus to keep up on apps as much as I used to.
Signal has numerous well-documented flaws, a history of slow fixes to vulnerabilities, and is highly centralized. It can really only be positively compared to Telegram.
However, in terms of ui/ux it is still the closest comparison that’s not wholly dominated by capital drives. Things like WhatsApp have better ui, but I don’t think anyone remotely interested in things like signal would use those at all if not forced to it.
Right now, matrix, arcane chat, xmpp, and similar options are better than signal under the hood (supposedly, I don’t have the knowledge base to verify for myself), but the ui is anywhere from outdated to outright horrible.
I’ve seen all kinds of justifications for it. I saw one of the more highly suspicious furries claiming that they have to use Signal because so many furries are disabled that they can’t figure out how to use anything more complicated (which other options really aren’t, they just insist on comparing it with Matrix which is god-awful and everyone comments on being viscerally disgusted by). People don’t really need anything more fancy than iMessage. You’re being babies. Just use your public borked and corrupt messengers and mentally sort them into the Facebook pile. If it’s not secure from federal law enforcement, then it’s not safe to have conversations on freely, since class consciousness, common sense, and human rights are illegal.
although it’s interesting research, I think it’s a weak text if you’re even tangentially aware of Telegram’s bullshit narrative as it focuses on the wrong thing. the main point should be “this dude was caught lying on a number of occasions and throws out smoke-screens and FUD when confronted about super-simple stuff. therefore nothing that comes outta his mouth is to be trusted” which should’ve prompted a mass exodus from this bullshit platform a long time ago.
the way more important issue is the collective action problem of dumping this crapware - leave it for what?
I run XMPP and Matrix servers and use various clients, along with Signal. all of those things are fucking dogshit software, there isn’t one that can come close to Telegram’s UX. if you fell into a coma in 2014 and woke up now to Element of Fluffy or whatever, you’d think someone’s pulling your leg. this is what a decade of development looks like?!
A decade of voluntary, part-time, crowdfunded development maybe
Unfortunately, that’s the cost of products made by and for the people - rough but private and mostly noninvasive.
No; in the case of Matrix it’s because the spec is insanely bloated. Nobody wants to work on that, especially for free.
Matrix is dogshit and the backend is no longer fully open source, from what I gather. XMPP stuff is basic, yeah, but Cheogram’s WebXDC apps and Movim as a whole have some really interesting upsides. Not sure why anyone wanted to move away from it.
You have no idea how funny that is because I called it on a whim half a decade ago.
There’s some acronym for this, EEE embrace extend extinguish right?
The Matrix foundation didn’t embrace and extend anything, as they were always in control of the spec.
EEE applies to when corporations (notably Microsoft) embraces projects that aren’t theirs and takes them under their wing, expands on functionality which attracts all the users and makes them the sole developer of that functionality, which kills the old, open forks. Microsoft then kills their version of it, and the whole thing dies.
Hm fair enough, would you say it applies to the situation between Google and Firefox? Because at this point it’s clear donors are a bigger factor than any software community. I made the comparison since the improvements of Rust and the potential it has for Linux and technologies intended to replace XMPP seem to have been politicized, giving NGOs control of projects in a way that could be misused further down the line. They’ll have a legitimate justification for it since they keep the projects alive.
Firefox is in the same situation. Bloated umbrella org (Mozilla) that has dubious funding sources builds subpar products. Look at how much support implementing JPEG XL had, and how they just didn’t care and completely shut the conversation down when Google said no.
can you expand on this? never heard it before.
Synapse is the backend for Matrix and last I heard, people had been waiting a long time for an update, then it was announced the fixes were going to be on a premium version.
The larger issue is that Matrix (and Matterhorn and some others) development has been funded by NED technology initiatives, and is supported by big clients such as NATO and Reddit (or at least Reddit is using Matrix as a backend for their chats now). So they expect the public to keep their client system healthy while customizing software for the military intelligence arm of the imperialist countries. Meaning our interface will suck. Being reliant on these kinds of things is a long-term weakness.
i thought dendrite was the new hotness?
Yeah it’s got something to do with that & development being split between Dendrite and Synapse. I don’t even really care to know since having to dig up the flaws with it then getting argued with by proponents who don’t like to talk about them makes me annoyed. Many Rust developers have a whole cyberpunk ideology that results in their justifications being peppered with political stuff that sounds straight out of Arab Spring-stan anarchist twitter circa 2016. It’s 2025 and those guys have successfully turned Syria into ISIS land. Yet they won’t stop crying - but, I digress! I do not trust any nonprofit dependent on the world’s largest concentrations of finance capital.
https://matrix.org/blog/2023/11/06/future-of-synapse-dendrite/
dendrite seems to be written in go nowadays, which i did not expect.
also, what spurred this political tirade? i just sat down!
deleted by creator
Yeah, it really sucks that the closest feature parity and ui/ux parity in messengers is proprietary services.
Even signal isn’t there. Mind you, they can’t offer all the same options by virtue of prioritizing encryption as the default, not afaik, with things like the easier syncing of messages.
I like matrix and it’s various apps fine overall, but they are definitely behind in polish and usability features. They just aren’t great as a primary messaging option. That’s ignoring the difficulty of onboarding people, which is tangential to this, but still relevant since it doesn’t matter how great a messenger is if you can’t use it with anyone. Since the lack of features and ui/ux issues prevent onboarding, it’s a real problem.
IMO getting Matrix’s UI to work like apps people are familiar with is an order of magnitude less effort than any other option, and possibly an order of magnitude better than other options in terms of meeting the design goal of private messaging.
OTOH I don’t make UI’s 🤪
I’ve heard that from some code minded folks before though, so I don’t think you’re wrong. ElementX is better than regular element in that regard already. Been a while since I tried anything else since I only have one person that I communicate regularly with on there. Everyone else is more sporadic, so I haven’t had as much impetus to keep up on apps as much as I used to.
Signal has numerous well-documented flaws, a history of slow fixes to vulnerabilities, and is highly centralized. It can really only be positively compared to Telegram.
I don’t disagree tbh.
However, in terms of ui/ux it is still the closest comparison that’s not wholly dominated by capital drives. Things like WhatsApp have better ui, but I don’t think anyone remotely interested in things like signal would use those at all if not forced to it.
Right now, matrix, arcane chat, xmpp, and similar options are better than signal under the hood (supposedly, I don’t have the knowledge base to verify for myself), but the ui is anywhere from outdated to outright horrible.
I’ve seen all kinds of justifications for it. I saw one of the more highly suspicious furries claiming that they have to use Signal because so many furries are disabled that they can’t figure out how to use anything more complicated (which other options really aren’t, they just insist on comparing it with Matrix which is god-awful and everyone comments on being viscerally disgusted by). People don’t really need anything more fancy than iMessage. You’re being babies. Just use your public borked and corrupt messengers and mentally sort them into the Facebook pile. If it’s not secure from federal law enforcement, then it’s not safe to have conversations on freely, since class consciousness, common sense, and human rights are illegal.